AI Empowered Leadership: The Human Touch

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• Transcript

  Sebastian Schieke (00:01.678)
  Hey, Kriam Proud and welcome to the show.
  
  Graham Brown (00:04.194)
  Sebastian. Pleasure to be here. I'm looking forward to this.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (00:08.426)
  Yeah, me too. Let's start with a question. Three areas which might not really belong to each other, but let's understand what leadership, AI and podcasting might have in common.
  
  Graham Brown (00:26.05)
  Hmm. So let's look at them all in the context of storytelling, Sebastian, because I think your audience as leaders would be interested to learn how to tell better stories, how to lead, how to influence, right. And we're in an interesting time. So we're now seeing a real focus in leadership.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (00:42.298)
  this week.
  
  Graham Brown (00:54.498)
  on times which we never really talked about 10 years ago. So we're hearing words like authenticity, empathy, and authentic leadership. What exactly is it? There's a real push, isn't there? Especially since the pandemic, people are asking these questions. What type of leaders do we need? Do we need that very strong, authoritarian, top-down leader, or do we need these sort of empathic, understanding, caring leaders?
  
  Sebastian Schieke (01:07.826)
  Mm.
  
  Graham Brown (01:24.042)
  And so there's a big question about what is leadership now. And one of the reasons why we're asking this question, Sebastian, is because of AI, because AI is able to do so many things now that human beings have been able to do in the past, very basic tasks which are being taken up by machine, all the way up to doctors, for example. If you think about...
  
  what a doctor's job is, you know, 60% of a doctor's time, especially the top consultant, 60% of their time is looking, if you take away the paperwork, is looking at scans, is looking at patents. So you go to a doctor, you get a diagnosis based on information and patents. So you have these very high paid professionals, like leaders, whose job effectively is looking at patents. And if we're talking about patent recognition, then, you know,
  
  Sebastian Schieke (02:18.67)
  AI kicks in.
  
  Graham Brown (02:19.834)
  AI kicks in exactly and it's actually very good at it and we've seen you know there's been competitions between doctors, oncologists, cancer doctors and AI and AI is one hands down in many cases. So we're in this very interesting era where even the most intelligent, educated and qualified leaders are being challenged about what do I do, how do I become a better leader, it's not my qualifications, it's not my education and
  
  or my expertise and this is changing what we want out of leadership. So AI is making that change. Yeah, if they understand what leadership is, right? You know, you still have the old school leaders, right? Who lead by authority and authority comes from their job title, for example. So I think that's the problem, isn't it? I mean, a podcast like yours is a stage.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (02:57.198)
  It's empowering the leaders. I mean, it...
  
  Graham Brown (03:18.466)
  for these conversations about what is leadership. So to your point about how does podcasts fit in, these are stages for people to talk and converse and share these ideas.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (03:20.491)
  Exactly.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (03:26.418)
  is a, yeah. But I mean, listening to that, ideally we could leverage AI to do more of the mundane work, maybe spend 60, 70% of our time looking at patterns, giving this to a machine, which in the end can do it better, and utilize the time we save to become better leaders.
  
  to be more authentic, to improve our storytelling, to use stages like podcasts to share our messages with the world and make the world a better place and also our companies.
  
  Graham Brown (03:54.807)
  Yeah.
  
  Graham Brown (04:10.99)
  That's a leadership statement, right? Well, that you just said, it's like, I mean, what good leadership is, it's pitching the unknown, isn't it? A good leader is able to take his people to the promised land, right? The unknown. You've now painted a vision of what leadership should be. Now, the reason why we need leadership like that is because people are scared to change.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (04:15.238)
  Thank you.
  
  Graham Brown (04:37.226)
  So your idea about what AI could be makes sense if people believe in the vision, but a lot of the time, it's not a case of they don't believe, it's just fear. They just do what they know. I mean, a really good example is, so, you know, I used to live in Japan and I spent a lot of time in Japan and they obviously one of the world leaders in AI, particularly robotics as well.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (04:38.659)
  Mm-hmm.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (04:53.434)
  Yeah.
  
  Graham Brown (05:06.214)
  And they have, there was a hotel which was very popular called Henna Hotel. And Henna means strange. And it was kind of like a gimmicky hotel. You go to the hotel, you walk to the lobby, there's a robot, you know, like a female robot greets you. And then when you check in, the robot takes you to the room, you know, shows you, guides you and checks you in the room. And.
  
  Interestingly, after six months of this hotel, they shut it down. They changed the whole system because many people complained it felt really cold. And interestingly, in the Henna hotel, they had robots working at the lobby, but in the laundry room, you know, where they're doing the drying the sheets, they had human beings. So,
  
  Sebastian Schieke (05:44.562)
  Mm.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (05:59.318)
  Should be the other way around, no?
  
  Graham Brown (06:00.53)
  Exactly. Yeah. I mean, if you go to, as an example, you know, AI, we talk about all these kind of amazing applications, but go to place like Heidi Lau Hotpot. Now, Heidi Lau Hotpot is owned by one of the most, the richest restaurateurs in the world. He's Chinese Singaporean guy. And the Heidi Lau Hotpot is just like a Chinese mala hotpot restaurant. You go there with your, you know, a group of you sit around and you, you know, you cook all your food. Now,
  
  The interesting thing about that is, Heidi Lau Hotpot uses a lot of AI and data, but it doesn't use the AI and data to replace the humans. It uses, like you said, Sebastian, the AI and data to make people more human. So the kitchens in Heidi Lau Hotpot are very small. Traditionally, a restaurant's built around a kitchen, isn't it? That's the kind of the hub of control. But in Heidi Lau, the hub of control is the table.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (06:48.986)
  Mm.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (06:53.586)
  Yeah.
  
  Graham Brown (06:59.138)
  And, you know, they have, yes, they have robots that come and bring, you know, sources and stuff, but they have waiters who come and they will do a show, you know, they'll do like noodle dance and stuff like that human, a very human experience. And they'll use all the data to predict what kind of, you know, next time that you come back, you know, they predict what kind of sources you want based on your previous experience and so on. So I think it you mentioned about how can we use AI to
  
  create a better experience, we need to be clear what the rules are. It's a bit like, you know, Isaac Asimov talked about the three laws of robotics, we kind of need a fourth law, which is that robots lift humans serve, right, that robots do, AI does the heavy lifting, like, whether that's data or whatever, but human beings serve, because that's the peak human state of leaders or, you know, frontline staff. So if we're clear about that,
  
  Yes, we can make AI work, but the problem is, is most people think about AI replacing humans as opposed to making us more human.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (08:05.558)
  Exactly. It is a big misconception in the industry and also belong many business people that AI is there to replace us. And this is why they are very afraid of touching it. I mean, it sort of feels like a big divide is going through the industry for AI enthusiasts and AI opponents. And I think
  
  It's not, I mean, AI is not there to replace people. It's to give leverage. It's sort of human assisted AI, you know? It's not, for example, when you, I mean, there are tools out who create automated comments on social. I mean, this is not what we want. But how about a tool which prepares a suggestion, you know? You look at it and you improve it and then you send it off.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (09:05.166)
  It's your voice, you have the last saying, and this is why I see the big leverage in using artificial intelligence, and really creating more momentum for us, that we can spend our time more wisely on more important tasks than, yeah, looking at patterns, as you mentioned in the beginning. But how can we change this narrative? I mean, I think this is the important question, because I think we need AI.
  
  We need to use it because we need to... I mean, I always tell a story when I... How did I really leverage, get... How do I decide that for me, AI plays an important role? I spent half a year in New Zealand. And it's an amazing country, you know? It's very laid back and people are very friendly and chilled. And then you come back to Europe.
  
  And boom, it's a complete different war game, very hectic, very stressed. And my stress level rose. I have this aura ring. And I really saw that my resting heart rate jumped when I came back. Yeah, I said, hey, why is that? I said, okay, because of all the stress, all this external demand. And I said, yeah, I need to change something. I need to create more leverage in my life that I can free up my time. And this is why I decided, hey, I really need to.
  
  Graham Brown (10:06.582)
  around.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (10:26.222)
  double down on all these new tools and automations. And this mindset, it's not only imply using technical tools, it's a different mindset you need to leverage when it's available.
  
  Graham Brown (10:42.358)
  Yeah, you have to be clear as well, Sebastian, about what the end goal is that you want. That we do, the problem is, like you talk about changing mindset. I don't think people know what it can be. Like most people think AI is about efficiency, right? So obviously, if you think about the factory model, which really has shaped industry.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (10:44.41)
  Yeah.
  
  Graham Brown (11:12.41)
  for the last hundred years, the Henry Ford factory model. Famously, Henry Ford said, you can have any color as long as it's black. That's the famous story, but people know that story, but they don't know why he said black. And the reason why he said black paint for a car is because it dried faster than any other paint.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (11:14.934)
  Yeah.
  
  Graham Brown (11:34.858)
  Now, if you think about that, this is the model which has shaped industry, not just factories, but you know, if you're a lawyer, if you're a dentist, if you are an accountant, or a leader, you work from the factory model, you've been trained in the last hundred years to think in this way. And in the factory, the least efficient component of the model is the human being, right?
  
  because the human being sleeps, the human being has a break, the human being gets COVID, the human being wants a union, the human being, blah, blah. It's like the human being is the weakest link in that model. And really, if you think about it now, that shaped so many of our mindsets in how we work. You punch in, you start work, you punch out, the bell rings, it's just like school, right?
  
  Sebastian Schieke (12:04.687)
  Sick, yep.
  
  Graham Brown (12:31.298)
  But we've kind of reached peak efficiency, if you like. We don't need any more efficiency in our lives, right? I mean, you talk about it. Now you want mental health, mental wellness. You want, you know, you're aware of your heartbeat. 30 years ago, Sebastian, people would say, ah, shut up, like, you know, harden up, man. But now people think, I know, actually, what's really important to me is time with my family or.
  
  you know, what's important to me is my health or, you know, how, how I feel, like, am I happy or not? You know, these ideas about happiness, these are new ideas in the context of career, you know, the last 10, 20 years, really. So if you put all that together, people are now saying that I don't need another car, I don't need more stuff. I need time and I need experience.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (13:25.203)
  I need more time, exactly.
  
  Graham Brown (13:27.594)
  And now we're sort of moving from this era of efficiency, which is where we were the last hundred years, to this new model, which is this age of authenticity, which places a bigger premium on the human experience in both how we work, our careers, and also leadership. So that's changing. So the mindset really has to recognize that, okay, everything that we really learned at school is becoming redundant.
  
  And what matters now is this sort of new model, just as you would have done 100 years ago, if you had to embrace electricity, automation, you'd need a different mindset, right? You can't go into that thinking about the agricultural model that we had before, right? And that's what's changing. We need to grasp that at a very bigger level. Leaders can't just simply say more. We've really got to think about different.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (14:07.258)
  Yes.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (14:22.898)
  Exactly, maybe efficiency is the wrong word. We need to reframe this using AI to generate more time because I mean, you still have a lot of things on your plate as a leader, a lot of tasks you have to execute. And using different methods and tools to do these tasks faster and then create more time. I think this is the ultimate result.
  
  leveraging AI to create more space for you, which you then can use for being more creative, creating new ideas, working on your business, not in your business, and then of course spending time with your loved ones, with your family, and on your own. I think that's the ultimate goal.
  
  Graham Brown (15:16.366)
  Yeah, take that back to the doctors, for example. Let's think about how you could use AI there. Like you say, how could you free up their time? Well, 60% pattern recognition.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (15:29.79)
  and improve the results for the patients. I mean, imagine every day, so many papers are written about certain topics in the medicine. And if you have something, you go to your doctor, you can't expect that he reads all the papers which are available, you know? So how do we make use of all this information, of all this knowledge which is available in the world, in the industry, especially for doctors?
  
  Graham Brown (15:33.099)
  Yes.
  
  Graham Brown (15:38.519)
  Yes.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (15:56.77)
  if you put them all into large language models, which then can look for patterns much better, I think there is the power.
  
  Graham Brown (16:00.598)
  happening I think now right yeah
  
  Graham Brown (16:07.838)
  I don't think we're far away. If you think with GPT and medical research, we're there really now. Now, now it's just a legal restriction. You know, you can't have chat GPT given, giving, you know, like, you know, doctor's advice at this stage, but it's, it's there. And I feel, you know, the thing we need to be mindful of, I think for your audiences, like leaders listening, it's okay, we can do this, but why, what, what would be the purpose of this?
  
  Sebastian Schieke (16:17.954)
  Yeah, data privacy, yeah.
  
  Graham Brown (16:37.43)
  And it kind of goes back to, there's an old story. Winston Churchill was asked about budgets before World War II. And he was asked about, can we reduce spending on the arts and education to fund the war? And his response, this is an apocryphal tale. So his response was, then what are we fighting for?
  
  Sebastian Schieke (17:00.978)
  Yeah.
  
  Graham Brown (17:05.026)
  And I think this is really the question that leaders face is what are we fighting for? Why are we automating like healthcare? Yes, we can make it faster and less risk, but why? What would be the upside? And I think if we go back to a doctor, this is where the mindset needs to shift. Sebastian is like, if we free up all this time for doctors, then what? Are we going to lose doctors? Are they going to be competing with?
  
  Machines. Well, the interesting thing is, you know, if you think about what machines can't do, like a machine can't sit next to you in a hospital bed and hold your hand and say, are you okay? Now think about that because yes, a machine could do it, but a machine's never felt it. You know, a machine has never been in pain. A machine has never experienced loss.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (17:47.438)
  Exactly.
  
  Graham Brown (18:02.166)
  you know, a machine has never experienced suffering, but a doctor is human and he or she has. And so this is where we need the mindset shift because in the world of efficiency, doctors cannot make mistakes. But in the era of authenticity, then doctors need to show that human side. They need to have good bedside manner because that is what we will value more.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (18:25.618)
  exactly.
  
  Graham Brown (18:29.258)
  And it's the same reason we're having a podcast now. Why didn't we just write a blog, right? It's because it's a human experience and we value this more and more. That is where we're heading.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (18:34.502)
  Yeah, exactly. But I would argue if we have more support by machines for doctors, they would have more time to sit next to you on your bed. Because at the moment they are rushing from, if you look at the hospital, I mean, I interviewed a brain surgeon not a while ago and crazy how, what intense shifts they had, you know, they working for four days in a row. And I thought, hey,
  
  Graham Brown (18:45.322)
  Yes, that's clear.
  
  Graham Brown (18:53.99)
  That was good. Yeah. That's scary.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (19:06.007)
  I don't want to be an emergency patient and be operated by you when you are awake for three days. So giving them these tools, giving them basically the knowledge of the world they can utilize for their work. Leaving them from endless research time or just giving them more space which they can then use to...
  
  be more human, to spend more time with patients, to sit next to their bed and give them more mental support. I think this is where we should head, you know? Yeah.
  
  Graham Brown (19:32.844)
  Hmm.
  
  Graham Brown (19:43.83)
  what we need. Your interview with Dr. Gary was very insightful, and it made me think about there's a book which I recommend to your audience by a brain surgeon whose name is Paul Kalanithi, and the book is called When Breath Becomes Air. Now it's not about AI, but it's about the career of a surgeon.
  
  And what's very interesting about it is exactly what we've talked about here is that he realized that a he was too busy, but also realized that because of the way he was trained, he lost all connection with the human aspect of his work and the patients. And he realized, you know, even just sitting with a patient and holding their hand and, you know, asking them about how they felt.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (20:29.586)
  Mm.
  
  Graham Brown (20:41.302)
  You know, you don't need 20 years of medical school training for that, right? That's a very human experience. But why doesn't he do that? Because he's too busy. So this is where we need to go back to the Churchill stories, that this is where we need the automation take away. It's less work, more flow. You know, like there's, there's an author called Mikhail Chik sent me high who wrote the book flow and it's a bit of an old book, but the idea is that there's this peak human state called flow, which.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (20:59.434)
  Exactly, yeah.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (21:05.586)
  Mm-hmm.
  
  Graham Brown (21:11.31)
  is, you know, if you're a tennis player or a footballer or a musician, you know, when the musician goes on stage, they're in that peak state where they, they're not really thinking, they're just, they're in the zone. And for leaders, it exists too, you know, or even doctors, there is a flow state. And for leaders, it could be storytelling, it could be you're in this zone, that's your peak human state that machine cannot do. And we have to find that flow state by
  
  Sebastian Schieke (21:19.41)
  Yeah.
  
  Graham Brown (21:39.566)
  Firstly, reducing all the work because you can't get it by doing more, you get it by doing less and taking that work off their desk. And that's where we need to take leadership, less work, more flow.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (21:52.71)
  So be in the flow, not in the wheel, in the hamster wheel. Yeah.
  
  Graham Brown (21:55.53)
  Yes, but we're all there, right? It's like, how do you take it? I mean, it's, you know, using these tools, but like, how do you apply that such that you can have less time on work? I mean, if you say to people, work less, they're like scared, you know? That's the...
  
  Sebastian Schieke (22:12.662)
  Yeah, because we are conditioned to do more and faster and better and get the next pay raise and the next car and the next holiday in a fancy destination. But yeah, we are hamsters. But let's really double down a bit on storytelling. So.
  
  Graham Brown (22:20.895)
  Hehehe
  
  Graham Brown (22:28.374)
  We are the hamsters.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (22:38.606)
  How do we tell really engaging and interesting stories to create an impact and to change people's lives?
  
  Graham Brown (22:52.998)
  Yeah, there is an art and a science to storytelling and we can talk about that. And if you study great storytellers, you'll see that happen. And I used to, when I was a kid, I used to watch a lot of movies with my mom, because she loved movies as well. And she was one of these people that would always say, Oh, this is what happens next. You know, and it used to spoil it. You know, like, Oh mom, don't say that.
  
  She's never seen the movie before, but she knows because she's read, she was an English teacher. She's seen so many movies. She's read so many books. She knows the stories. She knows what happens. And does that stop us watching movies? No. Like we still watch movies, even though, you know, if you think about Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, Harry Potter, it's the same story, just different characters.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (23:25.374)
  anticipated.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (23:33.767)
  Hmm.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (23:50.674)
  Mm-hmm.
  
  Graham Brown (23:51.134)
  So my point is that there is a framework for stories which we can learn, which exists, and the good thing is it's thousands of years old. You know, we've been telling the same stories, whether it's superheroes, Marvel, or going way back to thousands of years before we started writing stories down. So...
  
  The point is storytelling has a framework which you can learn, but I think it's also interesting to know why we tell stories. And it fundamentally comes down to this is that if you look at it from a neuropsychological perspective, that the brain cannot distinguish between past and future. So that there's nothing in the brain where it stores a memory or an experience or feeling in the
  
  you know, the memory bank of past and, you know, hopes for the future, the brain experiences it the same. So what that means is that if you are seeing a story of the future, the brain is still experiencing it as if it was a memory.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (25:04.646)
  Yeah.
  
  Graham Brown (25:05.462)
  which is the new, the very sort of the neuropsychological element of why stories. Now, the reason why that's important is because we as a species, as human beings, what we don't like is the unknown. We fear it more than anything. You know, if you look, if you look at all kind of stories about the bad guys, you know, there's a strong connection to the unknown, like formless shapes or...
  
  you know, omnipotent evil guys who kind of operate beyond the laws of, you know, known society. So for us, we hate the unknown, we fear the unknown more than anything. And if you think about what change is, change is leaving the comfort of now and going somewhere new, you know, taking you to the promised land, so to speak. So
  
  A leader's goal is to take his people, her people to the unknown, the future potentially. And the way a leader can do that is by connecting the unknown future to a known past. And a very good, there's so many good storytellers and we can go deeper into this, but like, give you an example, John F. Kennedy.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (26:22.855)
  Yeah.
  
  Graham Brown (26:23.126)
  John F. Kennedy, the president of the United States in the early 1960s, he set a goal or a vision to the American people and said, we will get a man on the moon and bring him home safely by the end of the decade, right? 1969, they landed on the moon. And if you think about that, Sebastian, if you think about our technology now and the technology in 1969, the mainframe computer for NASA,
  
  in 1969 had four megabytes. You know, your phone, yeah, the phone has how many, what 200,000 times more memory and computational power. And it was black and white TV. So that's the power of story. The reason he got people to the moon was because he connected it with a known past. Cause the stories he tells is about, you know, the historical precedent of mankind to explore the sea.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (26:54.638)
  Yeah, our iPhones are better.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (27:00.614)
  Yeah.
  
  Graham Brown (27:19.626)
  you know, how people came to America, for example. So it was a very familiar story to the American people, like, you know, we came to the, we came to America, because we decided to leave the old world and come here. Now, going to the moon is the same. And, you know, Steve Jobs is very good at this as well. You know, it's, it's about connecting the unknown future with the known past, you know, that could be, for example, you are telling your team about
  
  a new product launch or you are pitching an investor for funds for your, you know, unknown startup, or you are selling a product to a client. These are all unknowns. So if you study storytellers, you can see the framework they use to build trust with their audiences. And that's ultimately become all the way back to why we tell stories about building trust.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (28:13.458)
  and trust and connection with the audience. It's like sitting on a fire, you know, back in the old days, tribe of people, and then someone starts telling stories, you know, connecting them and creating an atmosphere and an amazing experience.
  
  Graham Brown (28:29.189)
  Yes, exactly that.
  
  Graham Brown (28:37.358)
  It hasn't gone away. We still, I mean, this is a campfire, right? We sit around and poke the fire. Yeah, well, we, you know, we don't have those three hour conversations anymore, do we really? That's gone from mankind. It's staring at TikTok for six seconds, right? But we still, I think we yearn for it. We still yearn for that connection, like you say, very human experience. People will watch a movie for three hours, right? But complain about.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (28:40.27)
  Yeah, campfire. I was looking for the word.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (28:50.45)
  Oh. Yeah.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (28:54.279)
  Exactly. And then it is...
  
  Sebastian Schieke (29:00.931)
  Mm.
  
  Graham Brown (29:04.738)
  10 seconds of sitting through an ad on YouTube, right? It's like, we still have it.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (29:11.254)
  Yeah. And I think especially nowadays it's important because the unknown is for many people very uncertain and there's even more fear at the moment than in the past of all these things going on in the world and having leaders who give their followers, the tribe, hope, you know, with storytelling is very important.
  
  I give them a vision and tell them that it will be alright, you know, even if there's so many things happening in the world. I have a clear goal, I have a path, and I know where we are going. And this is what helps them, yeah, also create some force and strength within an organization to move to one direction.
  
  Graham Brown (30:06.05)
  Hmm. What I find interesting about that statement is that it seems an easy thing to do. But the reality is, is that if you step up and you stand in front of the tribe and you give them hope and want to take them in the direction, whether that direction could be, okay, we need to launch a new product or, you know, we need to cut costs or we're going into a new market. It's scary.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (30:35.354)
  Yeah, it is.
  
  Graham Brown (30:35.83)
  But you will all, you know, I always think the leadership is the path of most resistance. And in many ways, if you look at leaders, they were unpopular at the time. So John F. Kennedy, for example, faced a lot of criticism for going to the moon. There was a lot of scientists and experts that criticized why we needed to go to the moon.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (30:47.747)
  Mm.
  
  Graham Brown (30:59.966)
  And even if you think about, I think Martin Luther King was probably one of the greatest leaders of the 20th century through his storytelling ability. He created change, the civil rights movement. He got people to accept, and you talk about connection. He got people to connect with people they weren't normally connected with. And what was interesting at the time,
  
  Martin Luther King was voted by a Gallup survey in America to be like, you know, around, not even in the top 10 of greatest leaders of our time. And when they were asked, like they were 50, let's say 50% against him, 50% for him, you know, in the 60s. But by the year 2000, when they asked the same question about the greatest leaders of the 20th century, Martin Luther King was number one.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (31:33.17)
  Hmm.
  
  Graham Brown (31:50.35)
  And that's what's interesting because at the time when he was alive and for any leaders here as well is that it's not a popularity contest. It's that if you want to be popular, get a dog, right? But if you want to lead, you have to face criticism. I think this is, you know, leadership's great. It's glamorous. It's cool. But the reality is, is that how many people actually want to step up and face criticism? Let's face it. How many people want to get on stage and face rejection? Not many.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (31:58.211)
  No.
  
  Graham Brown (32:19.542)
  And that's why we need leaders because there aren't a lot of them, because a lot of people want to do the work, but not a lot of people want to face the rejection leaders constantly face. And I think that's the bit we don't talk a lot about, but it's absolutely key to why a leader will stay the course.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (32:35.35)
  Yeah, those are also humans. They also have fear and as you said, they don't want to face rejection all the time. And on the other hand, there are some tough decisions which someone has to take. And especially in times where there's so much uncertainty, you need strong people and this is what...
  
  Yeah, many, many countries lack in their political landscape. I mean, we don't have these three leaders there and many political parties. I mean, normally I get too deep into politics, but I often ask myself, hey, I mean, you look at large countries, are they not...
  
  I said, anyone there who could do a better job, who's willing to step up and lead this country, I mean, hey, give me a break.
  
  Graham Brown (33:30.998)
  But is that by design? I wonder, right? I wonder if that's by design, isn't it? If we had a strong leader, I mean, you know, a strong empathic leader, right? Then, I don't know. It's a difficult, I mean, there have been in the past, I mean, John F. Kennedy was probably one of the last, and he was assassinated. Dead.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (33:35.278)
  Yes.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (33:50.106)
  Where are they now? Yeah, now where we really need those people. Ha ha ha!
  
  Graham Brown (33:54.326)
  That's the reality. John F. Kennedy was assassinated, then his brother, Robert F. Kennedy, was going to become the next president and he was assassinated before he even got to the election. So that may be, unfortunately, part of it is that the leaders we need maybe don't get to the stage. Yeah. I don't know. That's a deep subject. I don't really want to speculate too much about it.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (34:01.561)
  Mm.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (34:14.885)
  to lead.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (34:22.478)
  Now we're getting really into conspiracy theories. But no, I mean, I agree. But what can leaders do to develop these skills? I mean, reading...
  
  Graham Brown (34:24.942)
  Conspiracy, yeah.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (34:43.15)
  The theory is one thing, yeah, I mean, of course, we can read books, we can study speeches, but what would you recommend to all these leaders out there? What should they incorporate in their daily routine?
  
  Graham Brown (35:04.362)
  It's a really good question. One of the subjects we like to teach our podcast guesting agency with corporate leaders, intend to be coaches, consultants, startup founders, CEOs, authors, is this idea of agile storytelling. And it really is, you know, based on the idea that storytelling is not
  
  talent, it's a skill you can learn. And it's like confidence. Confidence is not a personality trait. It's a skill you learned. I mean, Steve Jobs often is said to be one of the great storytellers and they say, well, he was so confident, but he wasn't really that confident. He just practiced and practiced and was a very good storyteller because he put in the hours. Now,
  
  Sebastian Schieke (36:02.618)
  Yeah.
  
  Graham Brown (36:04.23)
  stepping away from podcasts a little bit, think about comedy as an example, like stand-up comedy. To me, if somebody's a stand-up comedian, they're like, wow, that person has stood on stage, they face rejection, they face criticism, and they either
  
  die of embarrassment or they rise, you know, and so I could never do it because it just seems to me so tough but if you take the idea probably one of the most successful comedians of the last 20 years was Jerry Seinfeld and there's a really good photo on the internet.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (36:25.154)
  order rise.
  
  Graham Brown (36:43.838)
  which if your listeners can Google it, it's a picture of Jerry Seinfeld sitting on the floor and he's surrounded by 40,000 yellow Post-It notes, you know, these tiny little notes all stuck on the floor around him. And he said that since he started comedy in the 70s, he kept every single joke that he ever made.
  
  So, you know, he went into the clubs, he made a note of the joke, and then he made a note of whether they laughed or not, and he kept it. And when we see, like, Jerry, now he's now retired, but when you see him on stage and do his comedy routine, he seems so effortless. You know, he's in a suit and it's hot lights, he's not sweating. We think, wow, how can he be so good at his craft? Well,
  
  what we didn't see was the thousands and thousands of hours when he went on stage, when there were five people, drunk in a small bar, people saying, get off. They didn't see that. And it's the same with leadership, is that it's not about confidence, it's about practice and the skill comes from practice. And the great thing is now, in the old days, Sebastian, to practice you had to go to a conference.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (37:41.482)
  Exactly.
  
  Graham Brown (38:07.702)
  You had to take a day out or three days out and travel, go to a conference or go to a television studio. Now you can get on a podcast. You can speak on a podcast and every podcast is a stage. Now, I put it out there to all the leaders. Think about that is that you can speak on stages like Sebastian's podcast and get in front of people who care about your message. You know, the people who listen to this care about leadership. They care about.
  
  the stories and the guests and what they have to share, right? And you can do that anywhere in the world.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (38:45.33)
  It's so easy. I mean, you said anywhere in the world. I mean, you are in Kuala Lumpur at the moment. I'm in Frankfurt. You know, we just need to find the right time, you know, where it's not the middle of the night for you and for me.
  
  Graham Brown (38:50.302)
  Yes.
  
  Graham Brown (38:55.798)
  That's not that difficult, is it? Yeah. I mean, we don't need to travel. In the old days, if I came to Frankfurt, it'd be like a week of my time, right, lost, you know? But we can do it in, yeah. And think about that. You can do it in your pajamas. You know, you can do it easily from the comfort of your office or your home. So I think that this idea of agile storytelling is like, you know, you don't need to have a finished book.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (39:06.755)
  When you're tired, you have dead legs and...
  
  Sebastian Schieke (39:16.686)
  Yeah.
  
  Graham Brown (39:25.09)
  to have a story worth telling, just get out there, practice, improve, you know, get feedback. Maybe today I said something to you and you're thinking, no, that wasn't very good. Or I said something you think, oh, I really like that story. And then, you know, that's my little yellow post-it note. I think, yeah, that worked. You know, next time I do something different, maybe I'll tell the story about, you know, cave paintings in the south of France. And you think, oh, that really worked. Maybe it bombs, right? Like a joke. But we've got to approach it like that, test and improve.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (39:42.466)
  Exactly.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (39:55.385)
  And I think for me, going on a podcast, it's like what you said, getting into flow, you know. And when you connect well to the other person, like we both connect quite well now, you have an easy conversation, you know, and there's no...
  
  There needs to be no scripting and stuff behind. I mean, when I started the podcast, yeah, I created a document which I sent out and I put in a couple of questions, you know, for the people to get, yeah, to reduce the fear, you know, and give them something to hold on. But I never used these questions, you know, because I always went into a free-flowing conversation and it was lots of fun. And then one time, someone came on the show, the pre-call, okay, I...
  
  Graham Brown (40:27.349)
  Mm.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (40:40.43)
  I prepped now every question, I wrote answers to every question. Oh my god, I don't even remember these questions anymore because I never used them. So I forgot to put them out of this document. But hey.
  
  Graham Brown (40:41.942)
  Hahaha
  
  Graham Brown (40:53.238)
  But that's practice for you, isn't it? Like, you know, it's like musicians, isn't it? Like if you, if musicians know chord progressions, they know if you start with a C, you can go to E and then G or whatever. Or if you're a jazz musician, it's different scales and stuff. But it's like you, you know, if we're talking about this, then we can go this way or we can go that way. You know, it all kind of is harmonious and comes back. That's practice, right?
  
  Sebastian Schieke (41:16.07)
  It looks like it comes together. Yeah, it's practice. And okay, sometimes you have someone on a show who's maybe not so experienced, and we have to ask more questions or try to steer them in towards a certain direction. But this is also a job of the host, and you have to create an atmosphere, which is welcoming and eases a bit the fear. So I try to have a pre...
  
  conversation with the person, you know, get them calmed down and yeah, then you have a free flowing conversation which often creates an amazing show. And I guess this is something what you also teach in your academy. Maybe you can share a few cornerstones of your program, what you do for guesting, right?
  
  Graham Brown (41:59.102)
  Mm-hmm.
  
  Graham Brown (42:09.246)
  Yeah, well, we help people get onto podcasts. And I think a part of that is outside of the actual logistics of getting them booked. A big part of that is working on their talking points. I feel like a lot of business leaders feel they don't have a story. You know, that's like, you know, I'm not a billionaire or you know, I'm not Steve Jobs, or I haven't written the book. But, you know, I find that most leaders
  
  Sebastian Schieke (42:12.901)
  Mm.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (42:26.908)
  Mm-hmm.
  
  Graham Brown (42:37.518)
  have something interesting. You know, every leader has left something comfortable. You know, that's the hero's journey, isn't it? That's the classic hero's journey. They left the comfort of the old world and they crossed the river and they went on the rocky road. Whatever that may be, it might be leaving a country, it might be, you know, leaving a bank and starting a startup.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (42:39.579)
  Mm. Yeah.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (42:55.387)
  Yeah.
  
  Graham Brown (43:00.566)
  You know, it may be all different kinds of aspects of that. And it's just really, that's it. That's a heroic journey. You might not think, Oh, I'm a hero, but 10 minutes we can get that. You know, I can find something in your story, which people will relate to. And you might not think, Oh, well, you know, that that's not going to interest anybody. I guarantee that somebody, you know, it, let's say you left a big bank and you went and joined a FinTech company.
  
  you might not think that's heroic but I guarantee one of your listeners is now sitting in a bank looking out the window thinking yeah exactly it's like wow you did that I'm like you're two years ahead of me and people don't realize that people don't realize that they think to be a hero you've got to be like you know Mark Zuckerberg or going to Mars with Elon Musk but the real everybody has this heroic journey in them and it's trying to find it
  
  Sebastian Schieke (43:36.51)
  I would love to have the guts to do that.
  
  Graham Brown (43:58.258)
  And everybody kind of connects with that. And also the failure that you know, you face whilst doing it. Right. So I think a big part, yeah, we all do. And to really kind of embrace that and not hide it and have that as part of your story, you know, because you think about every movie we ever watch, and if you think about heroes, they've all got weaknesses, right? They've all got, you know, whether it's Achilles in his heel or Superman and
  
  Sebastian Schieke (44:06.754)
  and we all face failure.
  
  Graham Brown (44:27.826)
  We like heroes that have faults. They make them more human. So a part of it as well. I think this is the other part of it, Sebastian. A lot of people trained in the corporate world, have been trained to be efficient and therefore perfect. Exactly, like very polished. But we don't want that anymore. We wanna know like, okay, so how did you screw up?
  
  Sebastian Schieke (44:30.79)
  Yeah.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (44:42.114)
  no signs of weakness.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (44:50.766)
  I think you want authenticity, all right?
  
  Graham Brown (44:52.994)
  that's the word, right? So yeah, it's trying to find that and sort of structure it and help people with their talking points in a way that will speak to their audience. So there's a lot of work that can be done. There's so much in it, like give me any leader and I can find, I'll work with them and help them find those talking points. And they sometimes feel, wow.
  
  I never thought about myself like that, but I guarantee everybody's got it. It's just because we kind of live in a world which is somehow disempowering us because we're not celebrities and we're not billionaires, right? But ultimately we all have something inside of us that is relevant to somebody.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (45:18.306)
  Mm-hmm.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (45:32.586)
  Yeah, I mean social media shows us most of the time the good sides and the polished sides of people we follow and this creates a lot of...
  
  Graham Brown (45:38.659)
  Thanks for watching!
  
  Sebastian Schieke (45:46.27)
  Yeah, it creates a feeling that we are not good enough. Yeah, that we don't have it, that we are not playing on the same level, which is not true. You know, I mean, they only show you one or two percent of their existence, you know. The rest is struggle and trial and error and what we all do every day.
  
  Graham Brown (45:49.046)
  Yeah.
  
  Graham Brown (46:08.974)
  Isn't there a word in, you tell me, you're German, in German the word Schulden? Doesn't it mean debt or guilt? Debt. Doesn't it also mean guilt?
  
  Sebastian Schieke (46:16.922)
  Schulden ist das. Die Schuld, ich fühle mich schuldig.
  
  Graham Brown (46:27.682)
  guilty.
  
  Graham Brown (46:34.818)
  So that's kind of, it's an interesting, once you sort of dig deep into that world of social media, you realize that actually it's built on debt. You know, all economic systems are built on debt, right? And one of the social media system is built on that feeling of debt, that we may not be paying money, but we have this feeling of guilt, like you say, because we're not perfect, because we don't fly in a private jet, because we're not driving a Bentley, you know, or not improbable bodies. It's that feeling of debt.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (47:00.174)
  Yeah.
  
  Graham Brown (47:04.782)
  guilt ultimately about ourselves and that's the whole system. So I think, you know, important part and the great thing about these kind of stages like podcasts like yours is because you can have conversations which are human and not about that. You know, this conversation is not about making people feel bad, hopefully, you know, for not being exactly.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (47:21.33)
  It's about empowering them, giving them tools, giving them ideas, helping them develop a vision and not showcasting someone and oh, you have to be like whatever, you know. That's also what I'm set up with my show.
  
  Graham Brown (47:47.67)
  Hmm, that's why we need it, right? We need those platforms. I think that's why we're kind of, the more we're in that world of social media, the more we yearn for those campfires. So we sit around and have real human conversations.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (47:50.491)
  Yep.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (48:02.178)
  should start a campfire podcast. It's probably out there already.
  
  Graham Brown (48:05.455)
  We've got three or four hours. I'm sure it is. I mean every podcast, like every good podcast kind of is a campfire isn't it? You feel like you're sitting around and like there's Graham and Sebastian talking and you kind of feel like you're the third person in that room. You're just kind of hanging out. I think that's what people want isn't it?
  
  Sebastian Schieke (48:22.586)
  Get comfy. Yeah, exactly. Hey, it's amazing speaking with you. I think we can talk for hours. Campfire, campfire talk, yeah.
  
  Graham Brown (48:32.171)
  Yeah, campfire. Let's do it.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (48:38.286)
  Anything else you would like to share? I mean, probably a lot, but anything which fits.
  
  Graham Brown (48:38.589)
  Thank you.
  
  Graham Brown (48:43.374)
  No, yeah, yeah. Look, I think, you know, we live in a very interesting time. There's like 5 million podcasts in the world, you know, and we really, you know, many, many years ago in the nineties, I started a web design company selling websites in 1996, seven, eight.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (48:51.482)
  Uh.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (49:03.442)
  Mm.
  
  Graham Brown (49:07.582)
  In the days you could sell websites for good money, we were rubbish, we were like a terrible company, but we made money, because there was nobody doing it. And it was interesting, in 1998, when Netscape Navigator came out, that there were five million websites in the world.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (49:10.746)
  Cough cough.
  
  Graham Brown (49:27.99)
  roughly. So we were kind of like, people talk about podcasts, I feel the similarities from where we were in the 90s with the internet, you know, all these kind of stages, all these options popping up, you know, we've got 1.7 billion websites today. I don't know if we'll get to a billion podcasts, but we certainly have got a long way to go. And I certainly think there's a lot more growth, you know, and for your listeners, no matter what your subject is.
  
  there's a podcast out there that speaks to your audience. I guarantee it. They're out there. You just got to reach out to those hosts and talk to them. I'm sure, whatever your talking points are, there are people out there who are interested to hear it. And I think, just as the internet would democratized a lot of conversations, so podcasts are doing the same.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (50:16.378)
  Yeah, and thanks for supporting this industry, Krayham, with your agency. And so if anyone is looking to start a podcast, wants to be a guest, reach out to Krayham. I mean, they do an amazing job. They can put you on amazing shows and help you, of course, create your talking points and your amazing story. Thank you so much for your time, Krayham. And...
  
  Graham Brown (50:22.623)
  Yeah, thank you.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (50:46.234)
  Um, yeah, enjoy the rest of your day.