Drive Profit and Purpose: CEO Strategy for Impactful Growth

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• Transcript

  Sebastian Schieke (00:05.185)
  Melanie van der Welde, welcome to the show.
  
  Melanie van de Velde (00:08.596)
  Hi Sebastian, lovely to be here.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (00:11.041)
  Yeah, it's amazing. You've basically been quite next door in Glasgow, which is not that far away from Germany compared to the interviews I normally have with people in US. So really great to have you on the show. You are the founder of Global Impact and Big Tree Global. And yeah, your focus is, yeah.
  
  this changing world and what can we do to turn it around? How can we lead in a sustainable way, which also results in a better return? And you want to hear some of your ideas how this increasing climate crisis can be turned around. So I'm really curious to listen to your story, Melanie.
  
  Melanie van de Velde (01:07.092)
  Okay, yeah, where would you like me to start?
  
  Sebastian Schieke (01:10.625)
  Yeah, maybe what drove you to, I mean, you wrote a book, Lead Like a Genius. You founded this organization, so what drove you to do that?
  
  Melanie van de Velde (01:21.3)
  Yeah, okay. So my starting point just from childhood was always that I thought poverty was just terrible and unacceptable and unnecessary. My background was engineering. My first master's was engineering and I ended up working in the tech sector. Loved it. Did that for years. Worked a lot in Asia Pacific. Yeah, loved business, but I did always have that nagging feeling of when I'm 80 something and I look back.
  
  I feel like I've wanted to at least try to have made a difference.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (01:54.529)
  The rocket chair test, sorry. When you sit in a rocket chair, when you're 80 and ask yourself, okay, what impact have you created? What have you done?
  
  Melanie van de Velde (01:57.044)
  Yes.
  
  Melanie van de Velde (02:04.5)
  Exactly. Yeah, yeah, I love that way of thinking and yeah, that felt really strongly in my heart. I felt like I need to do something about that. And so, I mean, I had a lovely life in the south of France and it couldn't be better, but I think it's good when you have that feeling you need to follow it. And ultimately, just via some other steps and more studying and working for startups as well.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (02:23.329)
  Hmm.
  
  Melanie van de Velde (02:30.9)
  I ended up then running an impact business and programs in the Kibera slum in Nairobi. So we did several programs with the children there to keep them at school in the slums. But we also had a business to empower young women who had no education and usually pretty bleak prospects with training and employment opportunities. And it really opened my eyes to how much more business actually can do and has a role to play in our global issues. But...
  
  Also that is very challenging. And so that made me want to learn a lot more. And after just doing more consultancy work also with other companies, I then did my research project. So I applied for a scholarship and did a PhD and really looking at, there are a few really successful examples from around the world, businesses that really impact or SDGs or key global issues really well with far better returns, impact returns.
  
  but also with much better commercial outcomes than the vast majority. And so I really wanted to understand why is that? If you're going to do this, if you have a grand million or time to invest, how do you make that kind of most? So yeah, so that was my research and then I learned so much and I wanted to share that with others and we made a few films about it. And then I wrote the first book. And then when I did more work with CEOs, business leaders,
  
  but how do you really apply this to your context? It turned more into a really practical framework that was easy to follow and it made me feel more, this is how it makes more sense to people. And that's my second book. So in a nutshell, that's my story.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (04:10.305)
  Mm -hmm.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (04:14.593)
  So is this only for large corporates, or can this be applied also from smaller organizations? So can smaller organizations actually make an impact in a sustainable way to save or improve our society?
  
  Melanie van de Velde (04:33.46)
  Absolutely. Yeah. So what I actually find is that there are some small businesses that can be really leading in this area and be innovative. And whilst their impact might not be as big as maybe a bigger company can in terms of scale or immediate scale, what you see a lot is that a lot of small companies have more space to innovate. And that can also lead to bigger companies than
  
  Sebastian Schieke (04:46.337)
  Mm -hmm.
  
  Melanie van de Velde (05:03.476)
  changing their practices also so it can actually lead to a much wider impact. And I think businesses are always surprised as to how they actually relate to the global issues because it's often very indirect, the impact. But once they see it, like these are the issues, this is actually how business relates. And they see the solutions around the world, it becomes much more obvious how much there is that you can do.
  
  not just in terms of climate change, but in terms of the plastics crisis, poverty, rising inequality. You're talking about change in kind of the kind of more right -wing movements and which is often also, you know, a kind of consequence to the rising inequality where businesses can have a huge impact also. So anyhow, yeah, I would say it, regardless of the scale, there is definitely a lot more that can be done than most people would probably realize.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (05:59.009)
  Okay, so maybe start with two, three of the main or in your opinion, most impactful measures company can implement in their daily operation to change our current or to positively impact the current situation where the world is in.
  
  Melanie van de Velde (06:27.508)
  Yeah, yeah. Okay. And so, it's always hard to say, look, here is a recipe. This is what every business can do. It's very context specific. I would say there isn't like one solution for everyone, but there is definitely a type of solution that's more effective. So whilst I can't say, look, boom, here, this is what you can do for everyone.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (06:36.353)
  Mm -hmm.
  
  Melanie van de Velde (06:55.124)
  it's easier to say, I can maybe give you some examples. Yeah. And I can also give you some factors that tends to lead to better outcomes, for example. Yeah.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (07:03.201)
  I think it's also a thinking process that we have to start. Look at the way how we do things and then with these ideas or with these examples from other companies and industries, you can most likely develop your own ideas and solutions.
  
  Melanie van de Velde (07:05.492)
  Right.
  
  Melanie van de Velde (07:18.996)
  Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. So yeah, so if you would ask, for example, the question of, right, okay, I want to do more. And how could I get better outcomes? Let's say I'm going to do an initiative and I want to make that count the most. So I can maybe talk just about some examples of, and reasons why some things lead to better outcomes than others. So I love using an analogy of, let's say you're running a bath.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (07:30.337)
  Mm -hmm.
  
  Melanie van de Velde (07:48.276)
  You take a phone call, you walk away and it takes longer than expected. And by the time you walk back into the bathroom, it started to overflow. And so if I ask, you know, people in talks, what would you do? Most people say, pull the plug or close the tap. Nobody would ever say, oh, let's mop up the floor. You know, all the water that's there, all these issues, you know, that's starting to seep through the ceiling. Let's begin with that. You wouldn't, it wouldn't make any sense. But that's exactly what we see a lot with climate change, with...
  
  pollution, air pollution, plastics pollution, with poverty rising inequality, there are so much of our effort, time and energy is going into dealing with the symptoms. But businesses are really well placed to close the tap, to pull the plug and really deal with the root cause. And so I'll give you a couple of examples. So the plastics crisis, everyone tends to be aware of climate change, but plastics may be a little bit less so.
  
  So as it stands, unless we change current trends around, there will be more plastic in our oceans than fish. You measure it by weight by 2050. Yeah, and it's very impactful on obviously biodiversity in our oceans, but it's also impacting our own health already. So on average, we now eat, drink and breathe five grams of microplastics each week. Each week, five grams, yes, yeah.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (09:09.889)
  each week. 5 grams each week.
  
  Melanie van de Velde (09:14.164)
  And scientists have started to research and have only begun to scrape the surface really of how is it impacting on our health, on our gut, on illnesses such as cancer, with some plastic components cancer related, but even our DNA. So, okay, quite a huge problem, right, that we want to deal with.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (09:18.497)
  Mm.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (09:33.281)
  Where is this plastic coming from? I mean, you said, pre -eat. I mean, where is the main source of plastic be consumed?
  
  Melanie van de Velde (09:44.116)
  So plastic is a lot in packaging, a lot of products that are intentionally designed for very short duration, for example. There's also different types of plastic, some more harmful than others. So in terms of solutions, we see recycling efforts, which is good. It's a nice start. But it's a very downstream solution, and only 9 % actually gets recycled.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (10:13.313)
  shouldn't produce it in the first time. I mean,
  
  Melanie van de Velde (10:15.124)
  Exactly, exactly, exactly, exactly. And so, and who can do that? Well, that's often businesses who can come up with great solutions. So there's, you might've heard of Daikl in Berlin. They're a great example. So they're a very small company and they're pioneering a solution in the NAPI sector. So NAPIs are really high in oil components, plastic components and...
  
  Sebastian Schieke (10:17.665)
  Uh.
  
  Hmm.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (10:27.393)
  Mmm.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (10:38.881)
  When I grew up, sorry to interrupt you, when I grew up, we didn't have any nappies, you know, we had, they're made of wool, you know, so we had to wash them and...
  
  Melanie van de Velde (10:51.124)
  Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (10:53.793)
  I mean, it's certainly not the most...
  
  Melanie van de Velde (10:58.324)
  opinion.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (10:59.329)
  convenient way of handling that, but it's certainly more friendly to the environment.
  
  Melanie van de Velde (11:05.588)
  For sure. It's interesting you say that because actually see the solutions that tend to work and scale are the ones that are ideally as good, as high quality, as convenient as the less environmental or social kind of products or services. So ideally you want a solution that is as convenient, but that is not as damaging. And so,
  
  Sebastian Schieke (11:12.257)
  Mm -hmm.
  
  Melanie van de Velde (11:33.748)
  Daikl is doing that. So they have diaper inlays that are fully compostable. But like with many kind of compostable solutions, they don't actually get composted. So they have put a model in place whereby they work with communities, they collect the nappy inlays at the end of the week. So nothing escapes the cycle and they get composted with the families also gets turned into very fertile soil.
  
  So it's also really nice kind of social, you know, engaging people increases loyalty with the product. Also, obviously subscription models and everything. So it's good from a commercial perspective. Um, but then they plant fruit trees with the fertile soil and the fruit is then in turn used as baby fruit. So it's so obviously not something applicable in every sector, but similar things could be, but it's a really good illustration of that full circularity. So that's closing the tab. That's pulling the plug. That's not dealing with the symptoms. And.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (12:08.833)
  Yeah.
  
  Melanie van de Velde (12:32.564)
  That's the kind of thing that we need to see more of. And so Daikl is small, they're pioneering it, but hopefully that is then something that might inspire also some of the bigger companies at some point to implement similar solutions. So that's one great example. And I'd love to give you another one in a similar context of, have you heard of Schiphol Airport? Light as a service.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (12:57.569)
  Well, I mean, I've been in Skipporle many times, but what do you mean by light as a service?
  
  Melanie van de Velde (13:00.02)
  I'm not.
  
  Melanie van de Velde (13:04.372)
  Yeah, so Schiphol is trying to be one of the most sustainable airports. And one of the things they looked at was light because obviously from an energy perspective, but also light is typically a product like many other products, household appliances, that is designed for obsolescence. So intentionally short duration so that they can sell it more frequently. There was this Phoebus cartel where manufacturers came together and decided to shorten the duration of light fittings.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (13:09.409)
  Mm -hmm.
  
  Melanie van de Velde (13:34.388)
  So Schiphol said to Phillips, I think it's such a lovely solution. It's so good for everyone. And they said, look, we no longer want to buy light fittings anymore. We want to buy it as a service. So give us a three -year contract. We pay you a fixed rate. You're going to have to replace anything that breaks and you pay the energy bill. And that changed the incentive for Phillips designers. Yeah.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (13:48.481)
  Yeah.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (13:55.873)
  Exactly. They don't want to sell something which the client has to replace in two years. They want to put in solutions which last. And you know what? About 20 years ago, I was diving in Australia and I was buying a shirt, you know, a diving shirt. I have this to this day and I still wear it and it still looks...
  
  Melanie van de Velde (14:06.068)
  Exactly.
  
  Melanie van de Velde (14:17.684)
  Mm -hmm.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (14:24.577)
  Yeah, relatively good, you know, compared to other shirts which I bought a few years ago, which, yeah, which I can't wear anymore because they are worn out. And this really shows me that there is a lifetime, the lifetime of a product you can influence in the way you produce it, you know, and what incentive companies have to have a long lasting product. None. Yeah.
  
  Melanie van de Velde (14:36.052)
  exactly.
  
  Melanie van de Velde (14:45.684)
  Have a good day.
  
  Melanie van de Velde (14:52.692)
  Yeah. Well, interestingly, I think more and more so because also this is a nice solution and we see it with here in Singapore is doing it for cooling as a service. And obviously if you can tie it into a subscription model, you know, it's, it's, um, yeah, it can be, can, can be a great solution. But if you look at Patagonia, for example, right. Who, who do, who also they intentionally design products that are very durable. And, um, because people know that.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (15:06.753)
  Hmm.
  
  Melanie van de Velde (15:22.516)
  they're happy to pay a lot more for the items. If you buy, even now you buy a third, three times used Patagonia item on eBay, for example, it still holds its value. And I think that is an important point that now more and more, particularly the younger generations, they see this and they care. And so I think this is really a good time for companies to, yeah, I think it's either a disadvantage if you don't do it more and more.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (15:41.057)
  They value this, yeah.
  
  Melanie van de Velde (15:50.868)
  or an advantage, the sooner you are doing it. Yeah. Yeah.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (15:55.425)
  Yeah, I think you're right. With the younger generation, they're more aware and more focused on sustainability and buying products which are not affecting the environment so much. But it's a process, no? There's still a metrology, I would say metrology of, I mean, especially people who don't have the buying power. They...
  
  often select the probably less environment -friendly product because it's cheaper, you know, and this is what they can afford. And there are companies that have to, I think, go in the lead and change this without the commercial results, without the immediate commercial results.
  
  Melanie van de Velde (16:56.852)
  Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, there's the commercial side, I think why it's increasingly, yeah, it was becoming more and more important from that perspective. But that's what I find is that a lot of businesses are doing this because the customers are asking for it. The teams are asking for it. They see it's important to be, you know, attractive to talent recruits, for example. But I think ultimately when people see the issues,
  
  Sebastian Schieke (16:58.081)
  No.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (17:19.489)
  Hmm.
  
  Melanie van de Velde (17:26.356)
  and they are more aware of them, who doesn't want to create a better future? You know, I think most people, once they realize, yeah, and I think that, and then it becomes, I think the business case has now, you know, really been proven, but I think there are indeed certain things. Are you going to do the minimum or are you really going to do this because you see the difference it's going to make for our future, but also our children, our grandchildren?
  
  And what I find really interesting is that when I see business leaders who do this, they do this with, you know, full conviction. They end up doing a lot better, right? In terms of the initiatives that come out of it, in terms of then also the competitive advantages they create. But it makes them really happy. They have a, it's, it's when you talk about this stuff with people who are really going for this, it's they have a spark hook. They'll, they, they, and I'm not saying that other people who, you know, don't, they don't have a spark hook.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (18:24.737)
  No, but you create long lasting impact.
  
  Melanie van de Velde (18:27.092)
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (18:29.249)
  And this is, and you also, I mean, for your organization, I mean, it touches so many areas of your business. I mean, you started with employer branding, you know, if you are environment friendly organization, then you attract the younger generation and you're much more interesting for these types of people when they're looking for a job. And, but I mean,
  
  Melanie van de Velde (18:55.892)
  Absolutely! Yeah!
  
  Sebastian Schieke (18:58.593)
  How can you, I mean, what is the, how do we reach those people? I mean, how do you open, how do you create your awareness? And how should they start? Is there a process, is there a methodology they can apply in their organization? I said, okay, now systematically look at everything we do and see how can we change it to decrease our footprint.
  
  Melanie van de Velde (19:28.724)
  Mm -hmm.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (19:28.897)
  Do you teach or do you help them to go through this process?
  
  Melanie van de Velde (19:34.26)
  Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, there are frameworks out there, right? That are, it depends what road you want to take. If you want to just be kind of more compliant with regulations, for example, there's ESG frameworks out there. There's like the B Corp framework that, you know, ticks so many boxes across your organization. My approach is much more about actually, let's look at the big picture first, or it could be second or third.
  
  Um, but what can you do that's actually really impactful? What's that 20 % at least 80 % of the outcomes. Um, and that really fits with your business and that's going to create that much bigger return in terms of impact, but also much bigger competitive advantages because yeah, I think it's good to touch on that point because you're saying indeed like, you know, younger people want to work for companies that do this better, but people are starting to ask questions about that, particularly in the U S.
  
  And I understand why, because it's true. If you are more purpose driven, studies like the Deloitte show companies grow three times faster, right? Through better customer loyalty, customer referral figures. 86 % of millennials say they'll work for companies with a pay cut if there is more of a purpose, that kind of thing. But there is purpose and there's purpose. There are so many companies that started this.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (20:57.793)
  Mm -hmm.
  
  Melanie van de Velde (21:01.012)
  that were innovative and you knew about that. And so like a Patagonia, for example, an interface, they're the ones that really get those benefits. But if you're more kind of following and you're compliant with regulations, people don't get as excited about that. If you as a company start to recycle, it's unlikely people are going to come and specifically work for your company because you recycle. Do you know what I mean? There is a difference, right? And so I think if you want to...
  
  Sebastian Schieke (21:26.625)
  Yeah, you have a...
  
  Melanie van de Velde (21:30.644)
  If you want to get big impact and you want to be attractive to talented people, to get customers excited, to be more loyal, to refer you to friends and family, it takes something else. And it takes doing something that's really effective, something that's a bit more, I would say a bit more novel. So I would always encourage people like pick at least one area across the SCGs. It can be somewhere climate related. It can be...
  
  Sebastian Schieke (21:48.737)
  Mm -hmm.
  
  Melanie van de Velde (21:57.396)
  Plastics is kind of up and coming. There's been a UN resolution, so you can take quite a pioneering role there. It can be poverty, social exclusion, inequality related. Do something that fits with the passion of yourself as a founder, as a leader, or your team, and get really good at that and communicate it well and do it really effectively. So that's more my focus. And so...
  
  I like to always start, I guess, maybe from an engineering background with what are the problems, what are the SCGs, simplify them, like what are the underlying causes? And then that's very much the framework I use in my book, in my workshops is actually really four areas where companies can have that high impact. And as part of their companies, supply chains or wider context, let's look at the innovative, really successful examples from around the world. And let's...
  
  Sebastian Schieke (22:41.153)
  Mm -hmm.
  
  Melanie van de Velde (22:51.028)
  with questions, with exercises, tease out ideas that really, that you can apply as part of your business model and that work really well. And then pick some quick wins, pick like maybe a bigger one that takes longer and develop a roadmap and run with that. That's more what I tend to do. Yeah.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (23:11.169)
  and you mentioned four areas.
  
  Melanie van de Velde (23:14.452)
  Yeah. Okay. I will, I think it's always a bit abstract to do it like boom without the examples, but the first...
  
  Sebastian Schieke (23:14.881)
  What are the four areas?
  
  Sebastian Schieke (23:21.729)
  Or maybe you start, name an example first, and then.
  
  Melanie van de Velde (23:24.692)
  Yeah. Okay. Yeah, let's do that. So if, if you think, right, think about the first six SDGs, so the first six global issues as defined by the United Nations, right? They're all kind of no poverty, zero hunger, good health and well being, good quality education. A lot of companies look at these separately and all the sub goals. And then you're kind of easily drawn into dealing with symptoms. So poverty, let's say poverty and hunger, right? You see a lot of.
  
  Pretzah manje, let's donate food to the homeless. Tom shoes, let's donate a pair of shoes for each pair you buy. Warby Parker, we donate a pair of glasses, right? So a lot of fundraising, a lot of donations kind of, yeah, it's logical. That's what you would think. And I'm not saying that's not good. I mean, I worked with programs in the Kibera slum and we had alleviating symptoms can be vital, right, for families, for children. But compare it to this, right? There is Soul Rebels.
  
  Ethiopia's, yeah, one of Africa's actually fastest growing food wear brands founded by Bethlehem Tillehan. And I love how she says it. She says, if you give a child a pair of shoes and it grows out of it or it wears out of it, then what does it have? But if you give parents a job, the whole family will always have shoes. They might not need shoes, right? They might need antibiotics or a skill uniform. And so,
  
  She has opened manufacturing facilities in areas that need economic development, and she pays her workers three times the industry average wage. Goodwill Solutions in Northampton does that also in deprived areas. They do it really, but it's how you do it also, they do it really well. They're in the footsie fastest growing companies in Europe. And I can give you countless more examples. And so the two first areas for me are, if you're going to tackle the SDGs that are all related and kind of are...
  
  knock -on effects of really the root cause of poverty and inequality. It's number one, empowerment. And there's different ways you can empower with your business. And the second thing is, it's just payments. And that doesn't mean fair payments, and it doesn't mean paying everyone the same. It means reflecting contributions made within an organization, within supply chains. And you know, if all businesses did that, we pretty much solved the bulk.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (25:32.801)
  Mm -hmm.
  
  Melanie van de Velde (25:46.644)
  poverty and the rising inequality in the world and all the consequences of polarization, extremism and things that kind of come and stem a lot from that cause. So there's those two areas. And then there is the planet side. And there's questions there that I use in my framework that tease out initiatives that are those light as a service example, you know, the durability, for example. So really what do you do that's most effective before you get...
  
  Sebastian Schieke (26:13.121)
  I like this idea, it's delight as a service.
  
  Melanie van de Velde (26:14.196)
  upstream. Yeah, in a nutshell, yeah. And then the fourth area is health and well -being. So as a business, you actually in all four areas, whether you intentionally do it or unintentionally, you are impacting these as a, as any business does. Yeah. But it's then how do you do that? And how can you make your impact be way better? I hope that makes sense.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (26:40.097)
  Completely. And you wrote this book, Lead Like a Genius. And maybe can you give us a kind of a summary? I mean, I guess many of these points you mentioned are mentioned in this book. What is the overall focus of this book? I guess it's for executive leaders to give them inspiration and ideas.
  
  Melanie van de Velde (27:06.548)
  Yes, I would say the book in a nutshell is really kind of the best examples from around the world compared to others. And it explains as I've tried to make it as short and simple as possible, why they lead to better outcomes and factors behind that. Why the balance with kind of the commercial side is so important also that that still matters as much as if you weren't making impact. And so it gives you these examples and
  
  Sebastian Schieke (27:11.969)
  Mm -hmm.
  
  Melanie van de Velde (27:35.7)
  It triggers with questions, ideas really for your own context. Yeah, I would say that that's pretty much, that's pretty much in a nutshell what it is. And then the end of the book, it just takes you through kind of if you were going to implement this, how you could do that step by step also. Yeah. From going from a vision to initiatives that you could run and how you kind of pull that into a roadmap and a business case.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (28:03.073)
  Nice. And then you do speeches and workshops around this topic and work for consult companies, I guess.
  
  Melanie van de Velde (28:09.812)
  That's right.
  
  Yeah. So I mostly focus on indeed kind of workshops, coaching. We're also running an impact trip to Amsterdam you mentioned earlier. So it's really for people that want to be kind of take two days full in. We're going to visit kind of global best practices and apply the concepts. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I would say those are the key things for now.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (28:29.601)
  Nice.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (28:36.577)
  Okay, so I see Amsterdam September 24. Everyone in Europe wants to learn more about how to create an impact, join this event. And yeah, thank you so much for this enlightening conversation. I mean, it's a very important topic and yeah, the world needs to wake up, I guess. Otherwise, I'm gonna see these pictures on your website, this or this.
  
  kind of frightening how this future could be if you don't start doing something now.
  
  Melanie van de Velde (29:12.596)
  Yeah, that's absolutely right. And yeah, I think when you see the pictures, obviously it kind of really nails it down to like, it's either a future that looks more like that or not. And yeah.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (29:20.513)
  Yeah, it's a burning forest or a flourishing forest, for example. I mean, these are one example of the pictures you had on your website.
  
  Melanie van de Velde (29:28.148)
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. And I think maybe the surprising thing for people is that I think we've traditionally thought a lot more the answers are going to come from maybe more from government NGOs. But I think the more you actually look at it, the answer is in the hands of, I'd say entrepreneurs. Yeah.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (29:42.337)
  Mm -hmm.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (29:48.769)
  Everyone, yeah. Every individual. It's our world. I mean, we can't just wait until the government is doing something, you know. It starts at a small scale. So thank you so much, Melanie. Really enjoyed this. And yeah, need to spread this message and educate the world. And you're doing a good job doing that.
  
  Melanie van de Velde (29:59.38)
  Yeah.
  
  Melanie van de Velde (30:04.084)
  Yeah. Yeah.
  
  Melanie van de Velde (30:16.852)
  Oh, well, thanks. Thanks for having me, Sebastian. It was lovely to join you.
  
  Sebastian Schieke (30:20.993)
  Yeah, thanks a lot.